Thousands of Afghans rush to the Hamid Karzai International Airport as they try to flee Kabul, Afghanistan, on August 16, 2021.
This week’s newscycle was dominated by Afghanistan, and rightfully so. The swift and ignominious end to America’s longest war, the palpable fear for those in danger from Taliban rule, especially women and girls, desperate imagery of people clinging to airplanes in a life and death struggle to escape, all of these images and storylines are important, gripping, and heartbreaking. This is a story that demands to be covered, as we have tried to in our own modest way on Steady.
The complexity of the situation on the ground has been compounded by years of occupation. Reckoning with this current moment, how we got to this point, how we should proceed forward, takes layers of understanding. Naturally, the withdrawal became politicized, with Republicans eagerly lining up to paint Biden’s leadership as ineffectual. Senator Rick Scott of Florida even invoked using the 25th Amendment to remove Biden. There are many hard questions the Biden Administration should be forced to answer, and on Monday the president outlined his case in a national television address. MSNBC’s Nicolle Wallace, a former longtime Republican political strategist, summed up what she thought would be drastically different takes from the public, and from the press.
On Twitter, we wanted to gauge what people thought of the speech, and got a flood of interesting responses.
Today, we want to take the conversation a bit broader. We want to hear what you think of what is happening now. How is the draw down looking now, in the days after the Sunday fall of Kabul? How is President BIden’s speech playing now with what we are seeing taking place? Where do you hope this goes from here? Where do you fear it might go?
But we also want to step back more broadly. Do you think the press in particular has put this crisis in enough context — the decision-making, the coverage of said decisions, the ensuing consequences? Are we hearing enough shout Bush, Obama, and Trump in addition to Biden? Who do you blame for where we are? What are our obligations in the aftermath of occupation? Do we have a duty to accept refugees? If so, how many? Has any of this forced you to reconsider your beliefs from the recent or more distant past about how the United States should act on the world stage?
We want to end by once again thanking those who served in Afghanistan, not only in a military capacity but in the diplomatic corps, in NGOs, and other programs. We honor both the Americans and the Afghans who worked hard to bring hope and justice to their country. If that is you or someone you know, we hope you will consider sharing your stories here with the Steady community.
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I and probably most people who have known about the conflict in Afghanistan do not understand why the Afghan army surrendered so quickly. My cousin forwarded the Guardian 8/15/21 article,
" A tale of armies: why Afghan forces proved no match for the Taliban". A major reason cited is the lack of accountability. The U.S. military leadership did not have the tools to evaluate the Afghan army's preparedness to operate independently of the US forces despite the $88 billion spent. Last night Norah O'Donnell gave a very moving tribute to our servicemen and women who served and serve in Afghanistan and to the heroes lost, reminiscent of several of your broadcasts.
like you mentioned before that stuck with me...Its easier to get into a war than get out of a war. I love that the US helps other countries, that we have compassion for others and assist as we can. However, we can only do so much. Maybe the Biden administration could have planned this exit out better, maybe not. Just have to deal with it now...
This debate is a waste of time… this is what matters— help the Afghans that helped us get out now.
I received this message this morning:
“Dear sir! Hoped to be fine and doing well!
As you know, a dangerous change has taken place in Afghanistan. The Taliban have obtained information about me that you were bringing equipment to the Americans in Zabul. They are in my efforts and there is a risk of my death. I do not understand what I do?, please help me. Please guide me please, I don’t have any way. and I am waiting for your response.
With Best Regards, xxxxxxxxxx”
I’ve been working all day to try to help this gentleman. Rather than comments of what we should have done or didn’t do right. Make things right as best you can at this moment. Action vice debate is the priority at the present. Let someone else make commentary or film the documentary after this crisis has passed.
Do this for us Soldiers that promised our Afghan partners they wouldn't be forgotten or left behind. Do this for our friends overseas. Do it to save face with the rest of the world. Do it for all of those we lost and all of those that have to live with the scars of this war and its failed, ever shifting strategic policy.
After 20 years and Billions of dollars, thousands of lives…thousands of hours training the Afghan military forces, extensive weapon supplies, our nearly endless air support, health care, economic investment, infrastructure, educational investments….our nation’s best efforts at strengthening and adding structure….those on the ground, understood the internal corruption & fractured social structures, cronyism, religious fractions….any number of troops, divided by these issues, lacking true leadership & courage/loyalty/commitment…it is easy to see, how the several hundred thousand troops evaporated….as can happen, their special forces & others, remained true to their mission…the paternal nature of their ancient society revealed itself & almost instantly returned to the previous nature of Afghan society. Trying to place the blame on President Biden? Demonstrates our own society’s cowardice, wishing to relieve ourselves of our own lack of participation, in our failure to demand an earlier end to the bloodshed. We may not agree with Afghanistan’s social structures, yet, as is being demonstrated…this is where they will remain, until change comes from within.
I was not in favor of invading Afghanistan. My view was (and still is) that the 9/11 events were not an act of war, but crimes of mass murder. Our response should not have been to declare war, but to conduct a criminal investigation.
Instead, we declared war on an idea and waged that war in such a half-assed manner that our failure was a foregone conclusion.
"Over the war’s first decade, I saw a focused military effort devolve into an unfocused undertaking to make over a country. Something akin to nation-building took place during those early years. But it was never on the scale of the Marshall Plan; it lacked a clear commitment and objective, and the United States was facing an enemy that retreated but was never defeated."
Once again, America decided it knows better how to govern a country with a totally different culture and mindset than ours, thinking that because we have more military might we can overcome these differences and force the "backward locals" to accept democracy. We learned nothing from the tragedy of Vietnam, and again have given aid, comfort, and lots of money to the military-industrial complex, and the corporations who benefit from endless, mindless war. It is sickening to think of the waste of time, talent and treasure that only benefitted a few war profiteers. We did give the Afghans a taste of freedom, so maybe the young people who have known only that will someday rise up and overthrow the religious extremists who now rule their country. We have nothing to say about it now, as we are having trouble holding on to our own democracy and prosecuting those who seek to overthrow it. We should welcome the Afghan refugees who want to come here, maybe they can help us now secure democracy for our own citizens in spite of the domestic terrorists who want it to become an autocracy. Bush and Cheney started this mess, Obama tolerated it, and Trump sold Afghanistan down the river to score political points. The MSM also bears a lot of blame, as there was never any real opposition to starting this war in the first place. No one took the time to study Afghan history or figure out how to complete the initial mission and just get out. Plenty of blame to go around, while Biden got stuck with the final mess and had the guts to finally put an end to it all. May we learn something this time, finally, for God's sake!
If freedom-loving Afghans aren’t willing to fight for the rights of their women and children . . .
If it is impossible to form a government that is not riddled with corruption . .
If the governments we’ve propped up have treated the citizens poorly . . .
If, after 20 years, 2.5 trillion dollars, and thousands dead and wounded . .
If, after 20 years, we can’t make it work, then put it down a go home.
The one thing I would have changed was the timing of the final withdrawal. “Fighting season” ends in October, when the weather turns nasty. THAT would have been the ideal time to withdraw.
This was a hard decision. I like how Biden is owning it. I hope in time people will come to admire him for making a tough call and living with it. Maybe Biden is more like Truman than FDR, the former having to make several difficult decisions during his presidency. However, Truman’s opponents were far more principled that Biden’s.
As I once again watch a man-made failure in a far-away land devastate human beings (men, women, children, babies) who don’t resemble me, speak my language or pray like me, unfold, the depth of my soul is yet again devastated by another human catastrophe that could have been avoided. WE (aka white men), in our altruistic fashion, decided to intervene and champion democracy in exchange for what? Loyalty? Oil? National Security? Regional control? Imperialism? Colonialism?
This is yet one more example in a line of human disasters resulting from our government's epic systemic and systematic failure to calculate and include the human cost of war, conflict, racism, religion, bigotry, male bravado, power grabs and hatred which spans generations. Just in my lifetime – Korea, Viet Nam, The Shah of Iran, Iran Contra, Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, Grenada, Haiti, Bosnia, Beirut, Civil Rights, Edmund Pettis Bridge/Selma, Alabama, September 11th, BLM, January 6th.
Meanwhile at home, WE can't figure out a way to call a terrorist a terrorist and ultimately refuse to legislate “domestic” terrorism. WE can’t seem to comprehend that a terrorist is a terrorist. There is no spectrum for a terrorist in terrorism. You either are or you aren’t a terrorist. There is no exception in terrorism which excuses or allows Americans to provoke "shock, awe" and terror in another human being.
I am also acutely aware of the horrors unfolding once again as Congress, our representatives, continue "to fiddle" with policies and funding to prop up regimes and anti-democracy militant groups for personal greed, grift and corporate profit.
The grift, con and deal making for power, coin, oil and other natural resources must stop and it must stop now if humanity has any hope of surviving an extinction event of our own making.
I know very little about the country, the people, the history, all of which means I'm just like about 98% of the rest of America when it comes to Afghanistan.
The withdrawal we all knew was coming was never going to be smooth, but it does seem to me it could have been better managed. I'm not going to finger-point; President Biden has made his feelings clear on our presence in Afghanistan for a long time, and he chose to 'go along' with what the former guy supposedly negotiated in order to achieve the greater good, our total exit.
Every single Afghan who worked with us who wishes it deserves immediate removal to a place of safety, along with their families. These (mostly) men put their lives on the line for us; we can do no less than to help save them now when they need us most. We have room for every last one of them. Put some of that massive military budget to work providing housing and other immediate needs and let's help them become contributing members of American society rather than war refugees in their own country. Suspend the onerous extraordinary visa regulations - get them out, then worry about the details once they're safe. (Movement and activities can be limited at first until further vetting is done to assure that no insurgents snuck into the mix, but this must be brief rather than turn into a sea of refugee camps with no resolution in sight.)
It's easy for all of us, the media, the pundits, to sit here safe in our homes (one would hope) and armchair-quarterback what's happening, but we're *not* there. I'm sure many of us have what we think are better ideas on how to accomplish the whole withdrawal - maybe some actually do.
If anyone is looking for charities, please check out No One Left Behind. They have been helping SIV refugees for over a decade. Founded by a Veteran and an Afghan translator. They help settle refugees when they arrive. I’ve had them as my charity for years via Amazon, and they receive a donation from my purchases.
Your question, 'who do you blame for where we are' is a bit unfair, I think. Pre-trump R here that supported those efforts, and even did some LOGCAP contracting. I really felt we were fighting the good fight, winning hearts and minds towards a better world. But we should have been gone a while ago. Unfortunately, 1/6 showed us without-a-doubt we don't have Democracy down here in the US, and we have no business spreading our version of it. I'm sure - w/o having been to Afghanistan - there were indications years ago whatever good was happening was contingent on our propping up the 'good' guys (who were only a shade different than the bad guys). I don't see one single thing that could have been done differently, except I think the hesitancy now is unfortunate and I hold the press and the authoritarianism-hungry right responsible for the pressures to create the chaos we. see there now.
This MUST stop, because we need to evaluate and focus on what this means for us on the world stage - we are NOT who we were when we started this conflict OR who we were when Biden made the call to pull out. This is damaging if the focus doesn't shift THERE - and soon. Sometimes I think the media at large are as ignorant as DT himself.
Since Vietnam , Americans have gotten used to our government engaging in wars without immediate financial consequences thus turning a war into a subject of debate for and against without feeling the continuous angst of out of control spending which would help everyone maintain focus on the wastefulness of unsupported war. Citizens would look twice at these ventures when they got hit in the pocketbook.
I’m old enough to remember and have watched the fall of Saigon, Vietnam …as a young mother holding my 5-month-old son … wife of an honorably discharged Veteran of that war, daughter of a WWII veteran, along with his 4 brothers … horrified of the images and swearing to the universe … Not my Son!…every 20+ years of one war after another… Enough
Felt re-traumatized … and concerned how our Veterans will handle all this now…
DISTURBING … we just never seem to learn…
On The Media: As we seem to lurch from crisis to crisis…
ON Today’s Current Incident at the Capitol … Something that disturbs me about our current media climate for a long time now … numbing minds or inciting more of the same?
STFU…So, a hot and dangerous incident is in current time happening…and commercialized and ego-based competitive media scrambling to grab audiences and pour out up-to-the-minute talk…as to what they know or think is going on…
We seem to have lost the ability to stay in the in-between of things…to wait and weigh things constructively …
As, I listen to the fill-in time of not knowing … I keep hearing them give too much extraneous information and details … that to me only serve to foster information in general is not needed at the moment…but worse, gives ideas and information into minds that are part of the dangerous thought-mix others … Please…STOP doing this …right in that moment I do not need to know those kinds of things and neither do they…
The Space Between … what is going on and what lessons, possibilities, solutions can come about…it is neither ignoring or being hypnotized and traumatized by what is happening we become frozen in fear or numbed out of our minds…leaving us feeling hopeless and helpless…
“Holding space” means being physically, mentally, and emotionally present.”
An important aspect of holding space is managing judgment, actions or speaking while you are presence.
Whether the U.S. withdrawal happened now or later, the result would be the same. The Taliban was just waiting in the wings. Yes, the Taliban takeover was swift, but it should come as no surprise. Anyone who thinks that negotiations should have taken place is delusional. There is no negotiating with terrorists! Americans are war-weary, and they should be. A 20-year war that cost thousands of American lives and trillions of American dollars should not be allowed to continue. The media, led by Republicans, were quick to jump all over President Biden's decision by painting him as incompetent. I wonder how they would have responded if the same situation had occurred while Trump was still President? I'm sure that they would have white-washed it, just as they tried to play down the attack on the Capitol by Trump supporters on Jan. 6, 2021.
Too much overly sensational coverage by news outlets that cater to corporate interests! I would appreciate more informed reporting that includes a careful analysis of how and why we have spent twenty years and two trillion dollars in an effort that served primarily to bolster a President's reelection efforts. At least, we have a leader who is willing to make difficult decisions and take responsibility for them. I refuse to watch network reports on our exit from Afghanistan, as I am too easily angered by the poor reporting and the quick tendency to play the blame game.
Dan, no one is talking about the backlog at the State Department. One of our "team" trying to help a family got through to them yesterday. They are reviewing emails from JULY. Our family has an email clarifying a mistake in paperwork that was sent August 11th. It won't be reviewed for weeks. Their SIV has been denied even though they qualify for evacuation. This is a scandal and a disgrace. Families are going to die because of paperwork.
There was never going to be any other outcome from the beginning. Those that opposed the war 20 years ago predicted an unwinnable quagmire invoking the Soviet experience just over a decade before and our own experience in Vietnam. Biden spoke true and took the blame.
The media coverage has been rather terrible across the board to what I've been watching from BBC, Al Jazeera, CNN, VICE, etc. in that they keep using extreme terms to describe conditions that don't seem to be happening widely as the reporters are on the ground using those terms. At the airport, of course.
So far, the Taliban seem to be imposing order and allowing the evacuation to proceed. The Department of Defense briefing confirmed that communications are open and cooperation is happening. No scenes of looting and public executions that I have seen. Will this change? Hope not.
No one who's been following this conflict should have been surprised at the rapid collapse. The false institutions the US and it NATO allies built controlled so little of the country the past few years and the Contested Areas on maps really weren't. The fact that the Trump administration didn't really include the Afghan government in the talks in any meaningful way is proof of what a hollow thing Ghani and Co. were.
As the Afghanistan Papers a couple of years ago revealed again, we didn't know what we were getting into. This is a complex part of the world and we had and have no right to make any demands. Even our initial demand of turning over Bin Laden and an arbitrary deadline showed our hubris. Revenge is a terrible foreign policy initiative.
We should take all that helped us and their families. The years long bottle neck is inexcusable. There shouldn't be a limit on refugees either. Why people that could didn't think and plan to get out after the Trump deal was signed and certainly after Biden affirmed in April that he was going to continue that policy is confounding.
There's a well of sorrow for all the lives lost and mountain of respect for those that served their countries. As for the trillions "wasted", a good bit of that did much to benefit the people of Afghanistan and will continue to. A good bit of that flowed right back to US companies and contractors too. I've met many a truck driver, security contractor, NGO worker, etc. whose lives have been transformed over the course of this conflict.
Also a rain of curses for W, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld, Powell and that pack of jackals for this mess. The only person to vote against the authorization suffered greatly for just wanting to step back and give 9/11 a think. Iraq is in the hands of Iran and Afghanistan back with the Taliban. Let's think about this past 20 years for a long while.
The big problem here that many seem to forget is that in the 1970's through the late 1980's when Russia withdrew, the US actively recruited the Taliban to help us the US to win the war against Russian occupation, the first problem I see is that we did this under the guise, or sort of guise of "protecting the world from communism", but I believe it was truly about oil. And yes okay protecting the world from the Russians getting the oil. Thus we the US put the Taliban in place there and none other, don't believe me? Look it up. And so now, look at us the US, we spent more money than I can imagine trying to train the inhabitants of this unfortunate nation, unfortunate because of their geographical location, human greed, and addiction to oil. I am old enough to remember the withdrawal from Vietnam, and it wasn't that different, people, hanging off planes, helicopters, so desperate, however that was different because it was "only communism" not radical folks who seemingly could be bent on terrorism. The overtaking of Vietnam by the communists has not shaken the overall balance of power on the planet, this being said, the same cannot be said about Afghanistan because of its proximity to the now "used to be" oil plantains from heaven. The Saudis are just about out and in fact are currently if they have not already succeeded in cornering the market on solar power, they aren't stupid... I think Biden did as good of a job that could be expected under the circumstances which should be judged by how the Taliban got there in the first place, and what the real reasons were that we were there. This is not to excuse poor training of the Afghanistan troops if that is what occurred, (because we were truly more interested in money making and oil), but this absolutely did not occur on his watch as it were, and we cannot and should not remain there indefinitely. Firstly we should have not introduced the Taliban over there in the first place, secondly, most of the oil over there is gone, thirdly it's not going to be easy but Americans must, must get over its oil addiction, it is a thing of the past and not worth destroying our national monuments, and precious clean water resources over, we need to move on folks; fourthly, just because a nation's politics do not agree with others does not mean we should put our big butts into the situation to try and make it come out our way, especially when it comes at the expense of our most important commodity, American lives, this is lost, wasted ingenuity, innovation, love, life.
How did everyone get it wrong. The afghan army gave up their country without firing a shot. Training with all the modern offensive weapons the afgan army just dropped everything and gave up.
I have to admit that I have not followed this country over the last 20 years, as I now believe I should have. What we are seeing is heart wrenching. I remember the day that trump stated that we will be pulling out. That stunned and saddened me. How could we leave these people in such a horrible position? What will happen to the women and girls? Who is to blame? There is enough to go around. Everyone in power for the last 20 years shares the blame. Biden? He was left holding the bag. I ASSUME he could have thrown out trump's plan but I don't know. I do understand that, if the Afghans refused to fight for their country, why should Americans fight and die? What was the answer? I doubt there was a good one. No matter what, the moment we left, the Taliban would rush in. And if we didn't leave, how long could we stay? Permanently isn't the right answer. My thought, if we could have just executed every Taliban member, our job would be done. If only . . . .
Three comments. Like so much coming out of Washington there's the "What" and the "How". As for the what, I do agree with Biden. It probably doesn't matter whether we exit this year or 5 years from now. The ultimate results, sadly, would likely be the same. It certainly was in Saigon. But the "how" it was executed is one of the worst examples of horrific understanding of how things might unfold and the logistical planning to do this. The women and people who helped us while there will suffer horribly. And I don't mean prison.
The second consequence - which I consider even more egregious than the 'how" is the likely effect on our current allies where we will need them the most: India, The Philippines in the defense of the South China Sea, Taiwan...and the foe is the increasingly belligerent China. Who in their right mind in these countries is going to say, "thank goodness we have a strong ally in the United States." Will Biden's actions in Afghanistan encourage Kim Jong-Un to start pushing the envelope? It's made us look weak and disorganized.
Finally, I am incensed at Biden's political calculation at the expense of the Afghan people. Polls told him he could get away with it so let's just do it now and fast so that Afghanistan will be well into the review mirror by the time this year's and the 2022 congressional elections roll around. Let's do it while the citizens are hard-focused on the delta variant. Don't worry, it will fade before you know it.
This was going to be messy no matter who made the decision to leave and when. I don't believe there could be any other way. We never should have been there with the military in the first place. Yes, they were harboring terrorists, but we could have put pressure on them in other ways. My opinion, but I am not a strategist and I'm sure many will disagree. But honestly that is a non issue compared to the way the press is now handling this and every story. Big headlines but little facts. I would love to see some unbiased reporting, but instead we are getting opinions. I just feel disgust now when I look at my news feeds. I am very thankful to you Mr. Rather and Steady. Your newsletters are a beacon of light shining through the fog.
I am so tired of the likes of politicians like Rick Scott, the Medicare fraud governor and senator. Shame on you Sen Scott, you and your other Republican cronies who haven’t done anything for 4 years. Well I won’t be paying your salary but will do my best to vote you out.
I have yet to hear a discussion of this (from Heather Cox Richardson's Letters for an American 8/16/21): "According to an article by Susannah George in the Washington Post, the lightning speed takeover of Afghanistan by Taliban forces—which captured all 17 of the regional capitals and the national capital of Kabul in about nine days with astonishing ease—was a result of “cease fire” deals, which amounted to bribes, negotiated after former president Trump’s administration came to an agreement with the Taliban in February 2020. When U.S. officials excluded the Afghan government from the deal, soldiers believed that it was only a question of time until they were on their own and cut deals to switch sides. When Biden announced that he would honor Trump’s deal, the process sped up." From what I have read, the Afghani soldiers had not been paid for months (what pay they had received evidently came from the US) and the Taliban took advantage of their need for money to bribe them? buy their weapons? and speed up the abandonment. IMHO, we clearly did not understand their culture or their real needs. Democracy was not among those.
I think there are many people in the US who are currently so overwhelmed with COVID and thinking about their kids going back to school, or wondering if it’s safe to travel or visit friends and family, that Afghanistan is a problem they can’t give serious thought to. Most people I know think it was good to get out, and would welcome the refugees, but just don’t have the bandwidth to discern if the way it all ended was inevitable or bad management.
We all need to understand, we can't change what has already happened, the best we can do is try to correct what went wrong and make every effort to get the right solution in the future.
The Afghan army laid down their weapons, the Afghan president fled the country. Good grief, 20 years of training and supplies did not give them the courage to fight. Maybe US/European/Christian nations could never have transformed Muslim Afghanistan. We were always viewed as occupiers as were the Soviets, as were the British, . . . And I have this nagging feeling that Pakistan, while reputedly a US ally, was the money, muscle and intelligence behind the Taliban. Where did all those weapons and motorcycles come from? Which border could they cross to find safe haven? Who alerted Bin Landen when Clinton tried to bomb him out of existence? Where did Bin Laden flee to after we invaded Afghanistan? And who later sheltered Bin Laden until we finally found him?
It's hard to believe that our US intelligence services did not foresee the Taliban cleverly making agreements throughout Afghanistan with local Afghan military to lay down their arms and turn over their area to avoid a fight to the death. The local military knew they had no American support, no air cover, dwindling Afghan government. They pragmatically chose life over death. Afghanistan has found a way to endure through its more than 2,000-year-old tribal culture, ruled at one time by Alexander the Great. It has endured through British rule, Russian occupation and American support. Most Afghans do not want to live under the Taliban, but they do want to live.
I suppose that if there is one bright spot for Biden here (yeah, I know that’s a stretch), it’s that this mess is occurring well over a year before the mid-term election and over two before the next presidential one. And Americans have notoriously short memories. Other pressing matters are quite likely to count a whole lot more in voter’s minds by then.
The tragedy of Afghanistan was brought about by American hubris: we, the mighty power, could redesign a backward tribal land into a functioning modern (semi-modern?) nation.
We could not, and most folks were extremely dubious about that possibility, to say the least.
It was hubris, too, when President Kennedy promised in his 1961 inauguration address that America would “oppose any foe” in the pursuit of liberty. Yes, we tried that soon after in Vietnam and lost 58,000 of our young me plus hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese and Cambodians and not a few of our western allies, too.
What should have ended America’s pursuit of remaking other countries to our liking should have ended in Saigon in 1975.
But lessons are often forgotten, and by the time 9/11 rolled around, that one certainly was. Then, to compound their grievous error in Afghanistan, Bush and Cheney invaded Iraq, too, for good measure. And, of course, with the same ignominious result.
President Obama didn’t want to lose Afghanistan, so he surged troops in. Sure, that worked as long as they stayed. Then the situation started to deteriorate once more.
At least Trump (and it pains me to say it) had the right idea: get out now because this war is unwinnable. The agreement Trump negotiated with the Taliban was a poor one, to be sure, and set us up for what has happened, but his basic premise was correct: dedicated ideological insurgents will out-wait national powers, accept horrific losses, and therefore eventually succeed. Viet Cong, anyone? Did anyone outside the U.S. government think that the Taliban wouldn't quickly triumph? C’mon. Even many insiders must have known.
Yes, it seems the Biden Administration was caught flatfooted by the amazing speed at which the Taliban rolled over the government, but other than that, Biden can hardly be blamed for a twenty year blunder that he got stuck with at the very end. Biden simply got left holding the bag. The debacle itself was clearly not his fault at all. Bush and Cheney were the architects of this tragic example of American arrogance.
Will we ever learn? Experience clearly says “no.” And that is the saddest thing of all.
He said the people he interacted with did not trust the Afghans in charge. He also told us to ignore the media circus. Especially journalists who gave the impression by their writing that they know more than the military in charge. Reporting the facts like Walter Cronkite is what should be written not some conspiracy to get people to read their crap. When the Afghan citizens believed no one was coming to help them they chose the Taliban. The Afghans were proud citizens who would fight to the death if their government could be trusted.
How about we report what is happening and not spend so much time assigning blame. We can report the facts and discuss needed actions. But "gotcha reporting" is a turn-off.
I am upset with the coverage of the cable press. It does not seem to put the whole thing in context nor does it appear to ask the important questions. The reporters continue to ask the same “gotcha” questions as if the they somehow have figured something out that thousands of professional government employees could not. It seems arrogant and counterproductive. One would expect this of the right-wing press, but all cable news is parroting the same “assumptions” - that somehow by the very fact they are government employees, they never think of the simplistic ideas the press come up with. I can tell you, they do and they come up with a lot more of relevance to the actual situation. No wonder many Americans do not respect our government. We are fed a steady daily diet of disrespect.
It’s a complex situation with no awesome answer. Leaving is creating a vacuum for the Taliban to take the country back, but that was going to happen no matter when we left. We spent TWENTY YEARS training Afghan military to defend themselves. What was twenty more going to do?
The right is using this as an opportunity to bash President Biden while conveniently not mentioning the fact that their guy made the deal WITH THE TALIBAN. The withdrawal is being used as a club to paint this administration in a poor light and therefore advance their chances to win elections and swing the country back to the right.. It is pitiful how willing they are to use the less aware of our citizenry to their own advantage. It’s revolting, actually. What would happen if everyone just told the actual truth, and we based our election decisions on THAT?.
We overstayed again. How we got out may be under debate, but that we got out is important. After 20 years of military "aid" we have created military dependence. Once we had done what we could in the short term, we needed to get out, and let people in Afghanistan be who they are/were. We don't have the right or the ability to shape or save the world. I don't think there was a good way to leave, given that we got no help from the Afghani government. Lessons remain unlearned decade after decade. Do what you came to do, and get out. We are not giving enough attention to the history in our endeavors, or in the Middle East. The political machinery in our own country is bad enough, not to mention that of the Middle East. Lawmakers might consider investigating the history leading up to the exit, rather than just dissecting the exit itself??? I don't know....
Biden once again proves his courage in doing what previous presidents of both parties failed to do: extract us from a unwinnable war. When I re-listened to this song from 2009 I burst into tears. I am grateful that Biden is willing to take the criticism from the Beltway Media and do what Americans have been asking. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMBAVNud9cQ
Without looking at the history of the battle to win the hearts of the people we could not and did succeed. In ten years of Russian intervention the outcome was exactly the same. We did what we never should have done. We repeated history perfectly.
There were many, many mistakes made over the long history and more than enough blame to go around. One of the biggest mistakes was the agreement that Trump negotiated with the Taliban with absolutely no involvement from the Afghan government!!! Hello, whose country is this? I am so thankful that our current president had the political will to make a decision that’s best for our country, in spite of all the criticism he is taking. So sorry that no previous administration, Democrat or Republican, had the guts to do it sooner. My prayer now is that those who want to get out can do so safely and that the Taliban will want to be a part of the world order, and will respond to international pressure towards human rights, especially for women and children, and for those of other faiths.
What Charlie Pierce of Esquire said so perfectly goes for me as well. I've a feeling that for the past 20 years we were all "had" by the American military who repeatedly led everyone, the President, the American public, and the Afghan public to believe their strategies for equipping and training the Afghan army and security forces were working. They could not admit that trying to apply an American-style military template to this country never had a chance of succeeding and was amounting to a colossal failure. Military intelligence got it all totally wrong, but hubris prevented them from owning up to their failures. Now the blame-games are starting, as Pierce asserts:
"There are a number of stories in your major news outlets on the subject of 'the blame game' playing out within the administration as regards Afghanistan. There is no winning side to this game because everybody involved got Afghanistan wrong through ignorance, malice, or venality. The only one who got it right was the president. And the more stories I read from anonymous sources at the Pentagon or in what is laughingly called the intelligence 'community,' the more I think that what’s driving this heated C-Y-A effort is that the president called bullshit on what everybody was telling him and acted on what was right there before his eyes. He pulled the emergency brake on the damn gravy train.
"Believe this. Almost everything you’re reading on this topic in elite publications is an effort by somebody somewhere to duck out of their responsibility for 20 years of fantasy and illusion and outright lies. Craig Whitlock of the Washington Post called all of them out when he printed the so-called 'Afghanistan Papers.' Anything that is attributed to the various anonymous sources that is in any way contradicted by Whitlock’s work is simply not to be trusted.
"I caution regulars here at the shebeen to read any of the stories on this theme with a small bucket of salt handy. Almost all of them are vehicles for bureaucratic ass-covering, knife-fighting, and the manufacture of scarcely believable alibis. Lay over these the usual journalistic frosting of Dems In Disarray and a mysterious impulse to pull this president down to the level of the previous one for the love of a good horserace, and you get a three-layer fudge cake. Most of the country still believes the president did the right thing. A great many of the others are partisan hypocrites, outright liars, or undersecretaries of something who’d like to keep their jobs. 𝘊𝘢𝘷𝘦𝘢𝘵 𝘭𝘦𝘤𝘵𝘰𝘳, y’all."
This is the sad and inevitable outcome to a war that has occupied a full generation of Americans. Long enough that current solders are the sons and daughters of the original invasion force. It demonstrates the lack of legitimacy the Afghans felt for the governments we helped prop up. The tribal culture of the land may be better served by the Taliban. The focus should not be on Biden but on Bush, Rumsfeld and Cheney (and his 2% rule for risk of terrorist attack) who torched off two decades of military action and nation building in Afghanistan and Iraq and the resulting loss of life to our solders and innocent civilians along with the squander of our national treasure.
I have difficulty pulling all the aspects of this mess together. But let me enumerate what I'm seeing/hearing/understanding at this point:
1. I agree with many that we never should have been there as a large force in the first place.
2. That said, there clearly was mission creep.
3. I don't know that the Afghans were unwilling; were they sold out by the Americans who negotiated with the Taliban but not the Afghan government?
4. A country that repeatedly has been invaded and occupied - starting with Alexander the Great, up through modern times, with the British and the then-Soviet Union during the Cold War and then being used as a pawn by the US to fight the Soviets (remember, we armed and trained the Mujahadeen...) and then we just DROPPED them instead of educating the young fighters and their kids and siblings until we waltzed back in because the Taliban were harboring Al Queda and Bin Laden - How did these people who haven't been able to direct their own destiny without an invasion force being there ever have a chance? Maybe I'm being too lenient, but I can't see that these people would have been prepared to stand up, even if their training - which was based on US military protocols of technology instead of the guerrilla ground strategies that are required for that environment to take on the Taliban - had been provided.
5. We have seen scenes like this repeatedly in US history (despite nuance-like differences): Saigon, the Kurds, now Kabul. Maybe the US is being revealed to the world for who and what we are?
6. Which administration are we to blame for this? The Bush administration started the invasion, the Obama administration ramped up our presence there, the Trump administration set a deadline for withdrawal after negotiating ONLY with the Taliban, The Biden administration - with a delay - lived up to the agreement of the withdrawal negotiated by the previous administration - showing that the US lives up to its commitments.
7. Do I agree with the move to leave Kabul? I don't know. So many have spoken about the "forever war." But we still have troops in Korea after the Korean Conflict (1950s) and we still have troops in Europe, since World War II. So "forever war"? I don't know. That said, the decision was made; I don't argue with the "what" of the decision. I hate to see that it was executed so poorly. The sheer numbers of people seeking to escape - mostly middle and upper class people (the poor probably see choice as not possible) - show these last 20 years have meant something to the population. We need to be responsible and get them to safety.
8. How long will the American public remember this and factor it in their consciousness and decision making? I doubt much beyond the arrival of the next crisis.
Biden owns the botched exit strategy. Full stop. However, there are many fathers for the Afghan security force’s surrender to the Taliban without a fight; these include the Obama, Bush and Trump administrations who collectively spent $1 Trillion to train, equip and support these same Afghan forces who quit before the fighting ever started. The Trump administration’s unilateral negotiations with the Taliban (no Afghan government participation), together with the release of Taliban prisoners, and establishing a May 2021 deadline for the exit of U.S. forces was a serious blunder. Biden reversed many of Trump’s policies and likely now wishes he had done so on Afghanistan!
There would never have been a good time to withdraw. I see it as Biden taking one for the team. It was always going to be controversial and probably messy. I agree that we should have been better prepared to get out of there, but I suspect more light will be shed on circumstances within the next few weeks.
I’m not qualified to comment on a war that’s been going on for hundreds of years. Biden did the right thing for the US and now there’s hell to pay for the civilians. We can’t control the taliban in Afghanistan..perhaps we should control the American taliban before it’s too late
I and probably most people who have known about the conflict in Afghanistan do not understand why the Afghan army surrendered so quickly. My cousin forwarded the Guardian 8/15/21 article,
" A tale of armies: why Afghan forces proved no match for the Taliban". A major reason cited is the lack of accountability. The U.S. military leadership did not have the tools to evaluate the Afghan army's preparedness to operate independently of the US forces despite the $88 billion spent. Last night Norah O'Donnell gave a very moving tribute to our servicemen and women who served and serve in Afghanistan and to the heroes lost, reminiscent of several of your broadcasts.
like you mentioned before that stuck with me...Its easier to get into a war than get out of a war. I love that the US helps other countries, that we have compassion for others and assist as we can. However, we can only do so much. Maybe the Biden administration could have planned this exit out better, maybe not. Just have to deal with it now...
This debate is a waste of time… this is what matters— help the Afghans that helped us get out now.
I received this message this morning:
“Dear sir! Hoped to be fine and doing well!
As you know, a dangerous change has taken place in Afghanistan. The Taliban have obtained information about me that you were bringing equipment to the Americans in Zabul. They are in my efforts and there is a risk of my death. I do not understand what I do?, please help me. Please guide me please, I don’t have any way. and I am waiting for your response.
With Best Regards, xxxxxxxxxx”
I’ve been working all day to try to help this gentleman. Rather than comments of what we should have done or didn’t do right. Make things right as best you can at this moment. Action vice debate is the priority at the present. Let someone else make commentary or film the documentary after this crisis has passed.
Do this for us Soldiers that promised our Afghan partners they wouldn't be forgotten or left behind. Do this for our friends overseas. Do it to save face with the rest of the world. Do it for all of those we lost and all of those that have to live with the scars of this war and its failed, ever shifting strategic policy.
After 20 years and Billions of dollars, thousands of lives…thousands of hours training the Afghan military forces, extensive weapon supplies, our nearly endless air support, health care, economic investment, infrastructure, educational investments….our nation’s best efforts at strengthening and adding structure….those on the ground, understood the internal corruption & fractured social structures, cronyism, religious fractions….any number of troops, divided by these issues, lacking true leadership & courage/loyalty/commitment…it is easy to see, how the several hundred thousand troops evaporated….as can happen, their special forces & others, remained true to their mission…the paternal nature of their ancient society revealed itself & almost instantly returned to the previous nature of Afghan society. Trying to place the blame on President Biden? Demonstrates our own society’s cowardice, wishing to relieve ourselves of our own lack of participation, in our failure to demand an earlier end to the bloodshed. We may not agree with Afghanistan’s social structures, yet, as is being demonstrated…this is where they will remain, until change comes from within.
I was not in favor of invading Afghanistan. My view was (and still is) that the 9/11 events were not an act of war, but crimes of mass murder. Our response should not have been to declare war, but to conduct a criminal investigation.
Instead, we declared war on an idea and waged that war in such a half-assed manner that our failure was a foregone conclusion.
"Over the war’s first decade, I saw a focused military effort devolve into an unfocused undertaking to make over a country. Something akin to nation-building took place during those early years. But it was never on the scale of the Marshall Plan; it lacked a clear commitment and objective, and the United States was facing an enemy that retreated but was never defeated."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/08/21/afghanistan-biden-obama-bush/
I don’t understand why people are surprised by the messy scramble to evacuate.
Once again, America decided it knows better how to govern a country with a totally different culture and mindset than ours, thinking that because we have more military might we can overcome these differences and force the "backward locals" to accept democracy. We learned nothing from the tragedy of Vietnam, and again have given aid, comfort, and lots of money to the military-industrial complex, and the corporations who benefit from endless, mindless war. It is sickening to think of the waste of time, talent and treasure that only benefitted a few war profiteers. We did give the Afghans a taste of freedom, so maybe the young people who have known only that will someday rise up and overthrow the religious extremists who now rule their country. We have nothing to say about it now, as we are having trouble holding on to our own democracy and prosecuting those who seek to overthrow it. We should welcome the Afghan refugees who want to come here, maybe they can help us now secure democracy for our own citizens in spite of the domestic terrorists who want it to become an autocracy. Bush and Cheney started this mess, Obama tolerated it, and Trump sold Afghanistan down the river to score political points. The MSM also bears a lot of blame, as there was never any real opposition to starting this war in the first place. No one took the time to study Afghan history or figure out how to complete the initial mission and just get out. Plenty of blame to go around, while Biden got stuck with the final mess and had the guts to finally put an end to it all. May we learn something this time, finally, for God's sake!
If freedom-loving Afghans aren’t willing to fight for the rights of their women and children . . .
If it is impossible to form a government that is not riddled with corruption . .
If the governments we’ve propped up have treated the citizens poorly . . .
If, after 20 years, 2.5 trillion dollars, and thousands dead and wounded . .
If, after 20 years, we can’t make it work, then put it down a go home.
The one thing I would have changed was the timing of the final withdrawal. “Fighting season” ends in October, when the weather turns nasty. THAT would have been the ideal time to withdraw.
This was a hard decision. I like how Biden is owning it. I hope in time people will come to admire him for making a tough call and living with it. Maybe Biden is more like Truman than FDR, the former having to make several difficult decisions during his presidency. However, Truman’s opponents were far more principled that Biden’s.
As I once again watch a man-made failure in a far-away land devastate human beings (men, women, children, babies) who don’t resemble me, speak my language or pray like me, unfold, the depth of my soul is yet again devastated by another human catastrophe that could have been avoided. WE (aka white men), in our altruistic fashion, decided to intervene and champion democracy in exchange for what? Loyalty? Oil? National Security? Regional control? Imperialism? Colonialism?
This is yet one more example in a line of human disasters resulting from our government's epic systemic and systematic failure to calculate and include the human cost of war, conflict, racism, religion, bigotry, male bravado, power grabs and hatred which spans generations. Just in my lifetime – Korea, Viet Nam, The Shah of Iran, Iran Contra, Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, Grenada, Haiti, Bosnia, Beirut, Civil Rights, Edmund Pettis Bridge/Selma, Alabama, September 11th, BLM, January 6th.
Meanwhile at home, WE can't figure out a way to call a terrorist a terrorist and ultimately refuse to legislate “domestic” terrorism. WE can’t seem to comprehend that a terrorist is a terrorist. There is no spectrum for a terrorist in terrorism. You either are or you aren’t a terrorist. There is no exception in terrorism which excuses or allows Americans to provoke "shock, awe" and terror in another human being.
I am also acutely aware of the horrors unfolding once again as Congress, our representatives, continue "to fiddle" with policies and funding to prop up regimes and anti-democracy militant groups for personal greed, grift and corporate profit.
The grift, con and deal making for power, coin, oil and other natural resources must stop and it must stop now if humanity has any hope of surviving an extinction event of our own making.
I am so proud of the intellectual, thoughtful, and courteous comments that have been shared on this site.
I know very little about the country, the people, the history, all of which means I'm just like about 98% of the rest of America when it comes to Afghanistan.
The withdrawal we all knew was coming was never going to be smooth, but it does seem to me it could have been better managed. I'm not going to finger-point; President Biden has made his feelings clear on our presence in Afghanistan for a long time, and he chose to 'go along' with what the former guy supposedly negotiated in order to achieve the greater good, our total exit.
Every single Afghan who worked with us who wishes it deserves immediate removal to a place of safety, along with their families. These (mostly) men put their lives on the line for us; we can do no less than to help save them now when they need us most. We have room for every last one of them. Put some of that massive military budget to work providing housing and other immediate needs and let's help them become contributing members of American society rather than war refugees in their own country. Suspend the onerous extraordinary visa regulations - get them out, then worry about the details once they're safe. (Movement and activities can be limited at first until further vetting is done to assure that no insurgents snuck into the mix, but this must be brief rather than turn into a sea of refugee camps with no resolution in sight.)
It's easy for all of us, the media, the pundits, to sit here safe in our homes (one would hope) and armchair-quarterback what's happening, but we're *not* there. I'm sure many of us have what we think are better ideas on how to accomplish the whole withdrawal - maybe some actually do.
If anyone is looking for charities, please check out No One Left Behind. They have been helping SIV refugees for over a decade. Founded by a Veteran and an Afghan translator. They help settle refugees when they arrive. I’ve had them as my charity for years via Amazon, and they receive a donation from my purchases.
https://m.facebook.com/NoOneLeftBehindUS/
Your question, 'who do you blame for where we are' is a bit unfair, I think. Pre-trump R here that supported those efforts, and even did some LOGCAP contracting. I really felt we were fighting the good fight, winning hearts and minds towards a better world. But we should have been gone a while ago. Unfortunately, 1/6 showed us without-a-doubt we don't have Democracy down here in the US, and we have no business spreading our version of it. I'm sure - w/o having been to Afghanistan - there were indications years ago whatever good was happening was contingent on our propping up the 'good' guys (who were only a shade different than the bad guys). I don't see one single thing that could have been done differently, except I think the hesitancy now is unfortunate and I hold the press and the authoritarianism-hungry right responsible for the pressures to create the chaos we. see there now.
This MUST stop, because we need to evaluate and focus on what this means for us on the world stage - we are NOT who we were when we started this conflict OR who we were when Biden made the call to pull out. This is damaging if the focus doesn't shift THERE - and soon. Sometimes I think the media at large are as ignorant as DT himself.
Since Vietnam , Americans have gotten used to our government engaging in wars without immediate financial consequences thus turning a war into a subject of debate for and against without feeling the continuous angst of out of control spending which would help everyone maintain focus on the wastefulness of unsupported war. Citizens would look twice at these ventures when they got hit in the pocketbook.
I’m old enough to remember and have watched the fall of Saigon, Vietnam …as a young mother holding my 5-month-old son … wife of an honorably discharged Veteran of that war, daughter of a WWII veteran, along with his 4 brothers … horrified of the images and swearing to the universe … Not my Son!…every 20+ years of one war after another… Enough
Felt re-traumatized … and concerned how our Veterans will handle all this now…
DISTURBING … we just never seem to learn…
On The Media: As we seem to lurch from crisis to crisis…
ON Today’s Current Incident at the Capitol … Something that disturbs me about our current media climate for a long time now … numbing minds or inciting more of the same?
STFU…So, a hot and dangerous incident is in current time happening…and commercialized and ego-based competitive media scrambling to grab audiences and pour out up-to-the-minute talk…as to what they know or think is going on…
We seem to have lost the ability to stay in the in-between of things…to wait and weigh things constructively …
As, I listen to the fill-in time of not knowing … I keep hearing them give too much extraneous information and details … that to me only serve to foster information in general is not needed at the moment…but worse, gives ideas and information into minds that are part of the dangerous thought-mix others … Please…STOP doing this …right in that moment I do not need to know those kinds of things and neither do they…
The Space Between … what is going on and what lessons, possibilities, solutions can come about…it is neither ignoring or being hypnotized and traumatized by what is happening we become frozen in fear or numbed out of our minds…leaving us feeling hopeless and helpless…
“Holding space” means being physically, mentally, and emotionally present.”
An important aspect of holding space is managing judgment, actions or speaking while you are presence.
Afghanistan in a soundbite: Catch 22
Whether the U.S. withdrawal happened now or later, the result would be the same. The Taliban was just waiting in the wings. Yes, the Taliban takeover was swift, but it should come as no surprise. Anyone who thinks that negotiations should have taken place is delusional. There is no negotiating with terrorists! Americans are war-weary, and they should be. A 20-year war that cost thousands of American lives and trillions of American dollars should not be allowed to continue. The media, led by Republicans, were quick to jump all over President Biden's decision by painting him as incompetent. I wonder how they would have responded if the same situation had occurred while Trump was still President? I'm sure that they would have white-washed it, just as they tried to play down the attack on the Capitol by Trump supporters on Jan. 6, 2021.
Too much overly sensational coverage by news outlets that cater to corporate interests! I would appreciate more informed reporting that includes a careful analysis of how and why we have spent twenty years and two trillion dollars in an effort that served primarily to bolster a President's reelection efforts. At least, we have a leader who is willing to make difficult decisions and take responsibility for them. I refuse to watch network reports on our exit from Afghanistan, as I am too easily angered by the poor reporting and the quick tendency to play the blame game.
Dan, no one is talking about the backlog at the State Department. One of our "team" trying to help a family got through to them yesterday. They are reviewing emails from JULY. Our family has an email clarifying a mistake in paperwork that was sent August 11th. It won't be reviewed for weeks. Their SIV has been denied even though they qualify for evacuation. This is a scandal and a disgrace. Families are going to die because of paperwork.
Judd Legum wrote a blistering rebuke of how the mainstream press keeps failing journalism and promoting corruption and war.
There was never going to be any other outcome from the beginning. Those that opposed the war 20 years ago predicted an unwinnable quagmire invoking the Soviet experience just over a decade before and our own experience in Vietnam. Biden spoke true and took the blame.
The media coverage has been rather terrible across the board to what I've been watching from BBC, Al Jazeera, CNN, VICE, etc. in that they keep using extreme terms to describe conditions that don't seem to be happening widely as the reporters are on the ground using those terms. At the airport, of course.
So far, the Taliban seem to be imposing order and allowing the evacuation to proceed. The Department of Defense briefing confirmed that communications are open and cooperation is happening. No scenes of looting and public executions that I have seen. Will this change? Hope not.
No one who's been following this conflict should have been surprised at the rapid collapse. The false institutions the US and it NATO allies built controlled so little of the country the past few years and the Contested Areas on maps really weren't. The fact that the Trump administration didn't really include the Afghan government in the talks in any meaningful way is proof of what a hollow thing Ghani and Co. were.
As the Afghanistan Papers a couple of years ago revealed again, we didn't know what we were getting into. This is a complex part of the world and we had and have no right to make any demands. Even our initial demand of turning over Bin Laden and an arbitrary deadline showed our hubris. Revenge is a terrible foreign policy initiative.
We should take all that helped us and their families. The years long bottle neck is inexcusable. There shouldn't be a limit on refugees either. Why people that could didn't think and plan to get out after the Trump deal was signed and certainly after Biden affirmed in April that he was going to continue that policy is confounding.
There's a well of sorrow for all the lives lost and mountain of respect for those that served their countries. As for the trillions "wasted", a good bit of that did much to benefit the people of Afghanistan and will continue to. A good bit of that flowed right back to US companies and contractors too. I've met many a truck driver, security contractor, NGO worker, etc. whose lives have been transformed over the course of this conflict.
Also a rain of curses for W, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld, Powell and that pack of jackals for this mess. The only person to vote against the authorization suffered greatly for just wanting to step back and give 9/11 a think. Iraq is in the hands of Iran and Afghanistan back with the Taliban. Let's think about this past 20 years for a long while.
The big problem here that many seem to forget is that in the 1970's through the late 1980's when Russia withdrew, the US actively recruited the Taliban to help us the US to win the war against Russian occupation, the first problem I see is that we did this under the guise, or sort of guise of "protecting the world from communism", but I believe it was truly about oil. And yes okay protecting the world from the Russians getting the oil. Thus we the US put the Taliban in place there and none other, don't believe me? Look it up. And so now, look at us the US, we spent more money than I can imagine trying to train the inhabitants of this unfortunate nation, unfortunate because of their geographical location, human greed, and addiction to oil. I am old enough to remember the withdrawal from Vietnam, and it wasn't that different, people, hanging off planes, helicopters, so desperate, however that was different because it was "only communism" not radical folks who seemingly could be bent on terrorism. The overtaking of Vietnam by the communists has not shaken the overall balance of power on the planet, this being said, the same cannot be said about Afghanistan because of its proximity to the now "used to be" oil plantains from heaven. The Saudis are just about out and in fact are currently if they have not already succeeded in cornering the market on solar power, they aren't stupid... I think Biden did as good of a job that could be expected under the circumstances which should be judged by how the Taliban got there in the first place, and what the real reasons were that we were there. This is not to excuse poor training of the Afghanistan troops if that is what occurred, (because we were truly more interested in money making and oil), but this absolutely did not occur on his watch as it were, and we cannot and should not remain there indefinitely. Firstly we should have not introduced the Taliban over there in the first place, secondly, most of the oil over there is gone, thirdly it's not going to be easy but Americans must, must get over its oil addiction, it is a thing of the past and not worth destroying our national monuments, and precious clean water resources over, we need to move on folks; fourthly, just because a nation's politics do not agree with others does not mean we should put our big butts into the situation to try and make it come out our way, especially when it comes at the expense of our most important commodity, American lives, this is lost, wasted ingenuity, innovation, love, life.
From Mother Jones' David Corn...more evidence we were had:
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2021/08/the-afghanistan-debacle-this-land-sneak-peek/?utm_source=mj-newsletters&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=daily-newsletter-08-18-2021
How did everyone get it wrong. The afghan army gave up their country without firing a shot. Training with all the modern offensive weapons the afgan army just dropped everything and gave up.
I have to admit that I have not followed this country over the last 20 years, as I now believe I should have. What we are seeing is heart wrenching. I remember the day that trump stated that we will be pulling out. That stunned and saddened me. How could we leave these people in such a horrible position? What will happen to the women and girls? Who is to blame? There is enough to go around. Everyone in power for the last 20 years shares the blame. Biden? He was left holding the bag. I ASSUME he could have thrown out trump's plan but I don't know. I do understand that, if the Afghans refused to fight for their country, why should Americans fight and die? What was the answer? I doubt there was a good one. No matter what, the moment we left, the Taliban would rush in. And if we didn't leave, how long could we stay? Permanently isn't the right answer. My thought, if we could have just executed every Taliban member, our job would be done. If only . . . .
Three comments. Like so much coming out of Washington there's the "What" and the "How". As for the what, I do agree with Biden. It probably doesn't matter whether we exit this year or 5 years from now. The ultimate results, sadly, would likely be the same. It certainly was in Saigon. But the "how" it was executed is one of the worst examples of horrific understanding of how things might unfold and the logistical planning to do this. The women and people who helped us while there will suffer horribly. And I don't mean prison.
The second consequence - which I consider even more egregious than the 'how" is the likely effect on our current allies where we will need them the most: India, The Philippines in the defense of the South China Sea, Taiwan...and the foe is the increasingly belligerent China. Who in their right mind in these countries is going to say, "thank goodness we have a strong ally in the United States." Will Biden's actions in Afghanistan encourage Kim Jong-Un to start pushing the envelope? It's made us look weak and disorganized.
Finally, I am incensed at Biden's political calculation at the expense of the Afghan people. Polls told him he could get away with it so let's just do it now and fast so that Afghanistan will be well into the review mirror by the time this year's and the 2022 congressional elections roll around. Let's do it while the citizens are hard-focused on the delta variant. Don't worry, it will fade before you know it.
This president has become a major disappointment.
This was going to be messy no matter who made the decision to leave and when. I don't believe there could be any other way. We never should have been there with the military in the first place. Yes, they were harboring terrorists, but we could have put pressure on them in other ways. My opinion, but I am not a strategist and I'm sure many will disagree. But honestly that is a non issue compared to the way the press is now handling this and every story. Big headlines but little facts. I would love to see some unbiased reporting, but instead we are getting opinions. I just feel disgust now when I look at my news feeds. I am very thankful to you Mr. Rather and Steady. Your newsletters are a beacon of light shining through the fog.
I am so tired of the likes of politicians like Rick Scott, the Medicare fraud governor and senator. Shame on you Sen Scott, you and your other Republican cronies who haven’t done anything for 4 years. Well I won’t be paying your salary but will do my best to vote you out.
I have yet to hear a discussion of this (from Heather Cox Richardson's Letters for an American 8/16/21): "According to an article by Susannah George in the Washington Post, the lightning speed takeover of Afghanistan by Taliban forces—which captured all 17 of the regional capitals and the national capital of Kabul in about nine days with astonishing ease—was a result of “cease fire” deals, which amounted to bribes, negotiated after former president Trump’s administration came to an agreement with the Taliban in February 2020. When U.S. officials excluded the Afghan government from the deal, soldiers believed that it was only a question of time until they were on their own and cut deals to switch sides. When Biden announced that he would honor Trump’s deal, the process sped up." From what I have read, the Afghani soldiers had not been paid for months (what pay they had received evidently came from the US) and the Taliban took advantage of their need for money to bribe them? buy their weapons? and speed up the abandonment. IMHO, we clearly did not understand their culture or their real needs. Democracy was not among those.
I think there are many people in the US who are currently so overwhelmed with COVID and thinking about their kids going back to school, or wondering if it’s safe to travel or visit friends and family, that Afghanistan is a problem they can’t give serious thought to. Most people I know think it was good to get out, and would welcome the refugees, but just don’t have the bandwidth to discern if the way it all ended was inevitable or bad management.
We all need to understand, we can't change what has already happened, the best we can do is try to correct what went wrong and make every effort to get the right solution in the future.
The Afghan army laid down their weapons, the Afghan president fled the country. Good grief, 20 years of training and supplies did not give them the courage to fight. Maybe US/European/Christian nations could never have transformed Muslim Afghanistan. We were always viewed as occupiers as were the Soviets, as were the British, . . . And I have this nagging feeling that Pakistan, while reputedly a US ally, was the money, muscle and intelligence behind the Taliban. Where did all those weapons and motorcycles come from? Which border could they cross to find safe haven? Who alerted Bin Landen when Clinton tried to bomb him out of existence? Where did Bin Laden flee to after we invaded Afghanistan? And who later sheltered Bin Laden until we finally found him?
It's hard to believe that our US intelligence services did not foresee the Taliban cleverly making agreements throughout Afghanistan with local Afghan military to lay down their arms and turn over their area to avoid a fight to the death. The local military knew they had no American support, no air cover, dwindling Afghan government. They pragmatically chose life over death. Afghanistan has found a way to endure through its more than 2,000-year-old tribal culture, ruled at one time by Alexander the Great. It has endured through British rule, Russian occupation and American support. Most Afghans do not want to live under the Taliban, but they do want to live.
I suppose that if there is one bright spot for Biden here (yeah, I know that’s a stretch), it’s that this mess is occurring well over a year before the mid-term election and over two before the next presidential one. And Americans have notoriously short memories. Other pressing matters are quite likely to count a whole lot more in voter’s minds by then.
The tragedy of Afghanistan was brought about by American hubris: we, the mighty power, could redesign a backward tribal land into a functioning modern (semi-modern?) nation.
We could not, and most folks were extremely dubious about that possibility, to say the least.
It was hubris, too, when President Kennedy promised in his 1961 inauguration address that America would “oppose any foe” in the pursuit of liberty. Yes, we tried that soon after in Vietnam and lost 58,000 of our young me plus hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese and Cambodians and not a few of our western allies, too.
What should have ended America’s pursuit of remaking other countries to our liking should have ended in Saigon in 1975.
But lessons are often forgotten, and by the time 9/11 rolled around, that one certainly was. Then, to compound their grievous error in Afghanistan, Bush and Cheney invaded Iraq, too, for good measure. And, of course, with the same ignominious result.
President Obama didn’t want to lose Afghanistan, so he surged troops in. Sure, that worked as long as they stayed. Then the situation started to deteriorate once more.
At least Trump (and it pains me to say it) had the right idea: get out now because this war is unwinnable. The agreement Trump negotiated with the Taliban was a poor one, to be sure, and set us up for what has happened, but his basic premise was correct: dedicated ideological insurgents will out-wait national powers, accept horrific losses, and therefore eventually succeed. Viet Cong, anyone? Did anyone outside the U.S. government think that the Taliban wouldn't quickly triumph? C’mon. Even many insiders must have known.
Yes, it seems the Biden Administration was caught flatfooted by the amazing speed at which the Taliban rolled over the government, but other than that, Biden can hardly be blamed for a twenty year blunder that he got stuck with at the very end. Biden simply got left holding the bag. The debacle itself was clearly not his fault at all. Bush and Cheney were the architects of this tragic example of American arrogance.
Will we ever learn? Experience clearly says “no.” And that is the saddest thing of all.
He said the people he interacted with did not trust the Afghans in charge. He also told us to ignore the media circus. Especially journalists who gave the impression by their writing that they know more than the military in charge. Reporting the facts like Walter Cronkite is what should be written not some conspiracy to get people to read their crap. When the Afghan citizens believed no one was coming to help them they chose the Taliban. The Afghans were proud citizens who would fight to the death if their government could be trusted.
How about we report what is happening and not spend so much time assigning blame. We can report the facts and discuss needed actions. But "gotcha reporting" is a turn-off.
I am upset with the coverage of the cable press. It does not seem to put the whole thing in context nor does it appear to ask the important questions. The reporters continue to ask the same “gotcha” questions as if the they somehow have figured something out that thousands of professional government employees could not. It seems arrogant and counterproductive. One would expect this of the right-wing press, but all cable news is parroting the same “assumptions” - that somehow by the very fact they are government employees, they never think of the simplistic ideas the press come up with. I can tell you, they do and they come up with a lot more of relevance to the actual situation. No wonder many Americans do not respect our government. We are fed a steady daily diet of disrespect.
It’s a complex situation with no awesome answer. Leaving is creating a vacuum for the Taliban to take the country back, but that was going to happen no matter when we left. We spent TWENTY YEARS training Afghan military to defend themselves. What was twenty more going to do?
The right is using this as an opportunity to bash President Biden while conveniently not mentioning the fact that their guy made the deal WITH THE TALIBAN. The withdrawal is being used as a club to paint this administration in a poor light and therefore advance their chances to win elections and swing the country back to the right.. It is pitiful how willing they are to use the less aware of our citizenry to their own advantage. It’s revolting, actually. What would happen if everyone just told the actual truth, and we based our election decisions on THAT?.
We overstayed again. How we got out may be under debate, but that we got out is important. After 20 years of military "aid" we have created military dependence. Once we had done what we could in the short term, we needed to get out, and let people in Afghanistan be who they are/were. We don't have the right or the ability to shape or save the world. I don't think there was a good way to leave, given that we got no help from the Afghani government. Lessons remain unlearned decade after decade. Do what you came to do, and get out. We are not giving enough attention to the history in our endeavors, or in the Middle East. The political machinery in our own country is bad enough, not to mention that of the Middle East. Lawmakers might consider investigating the history leading up to the exit, rather than just dissecting the exit itself??? I don't know....
Biden once again proves his courage in doing what previous presidents of both parties failed to do: extract us from a unwinnable war. When I re-listened to this song from 2009 I burst into tears. I am grateful that Biden is willing to take the criticism from the Beltway Media and do what Americans have been asking. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMBAVNud9cQ
Without looking at the history of the battle to win the hearts of the people we could not and did succeed. In ten years of Russian intervention the outcome was exactly the same. We did what we never should have done. We repeated history perfectly.
There were many, many mistakes made over the long history and more than enough blame to go around. One of the biggest mistakes was the agreement that Trump negotiated with the Taliban with absolutely no involvement from the Afghan government!!! Hello, whose country is this? I am so thankful that our current president had the political will to make a decision that’s best for our country, in spite of all the criticism he is taking. So sorry that no previous administration, Democrat or Republican, had the guts to do it sooner. My prayer now is that those who want to get out can do so safely and that the Taliban will want to be a part of the world order, and will respond to international pressure towards human rights, especially for women and children, and for those of other faiths.
What Charlie Pierce of Esquire said so perfectly goes for me as well. I've a feeling that for the past 20 years we were all "had" by the American military who repeatedly led everyone, the President, the American public, and the Afghan public to believe their strategies for equipping and training the Afghan army and security forces were working. They could not admit that trying to apply an American-style military template to this country never had a chance of succeeding and was amounting to a colossal failure. Military intelligence got it all totally wrong, but hubris prevented them from owning up to their failures. Now the blame-games are starting, as Pierce asserts:
"There are a number of stories in your major news outlets on the subject of 'the blame game' playing out within the administration as regards Afghanistan. There is no winning side to this game because everybody involved got Afghanistan wrong through ignorance, malice, or venality. The only one who got it right was the president. And the more stories I read from anonymous sources at the Pentagon or in what is laughingly called the intelligence 'community,' the more I think that what’s driving this heated C-Y-A effort is that the president called bullshit on what everybody was telling him and acted on what was right there before his eyes. He pulled the emergency brake on the damn gravy train.
"Believe this. Almost everything you’re reading on this topic in elite publications is an effort by somebody somewhere to duck out of their responsibility for 20 years of fantasy and illusion and outright lies. Craig Whitlock of the Washington Post called all of them out when he printed the so-called 'Afghanistan Papers.' Anything that is attributed to the various anonymous sources that is in any way contradicted by Whitlock’s work is simply not to be trusted.
"I caution regulars here at the shebeen to read any of the stories on this theme with a small bucket of salt handy. Almost all of them are vehicles for bureaucratic ass-covering, knife-fighting, and the manufacture of scarcely believable alibis. Lay over these the usual journalistic frosting of Dems In Disarray and a mysterious impulse to pull this president down to the level of the previous one for the love of a good horserace, and you get a three-layer fudge cake. Most of the country still believes the president did the right thing. A great many of the others are partisan hypocrites, outright liars, or undersecretaries of something who’d like to keep their jobs. 𝘊𝘢𝘷𝘦𝘢𝘵 𝘭𝘦𝘤𝘵𝘰𝘳, y’all."
This is the sad and inevitable outcome to a war that has occupied a full generation of Americans. Long enough that current solders are the sons and daughters of the original invasion force. It demonstrates the lack of legitimacy the Afghans felt for the governments we helped prop up. The tribal culture of the land may be better served by the Taliban. The focus should not be on Biden but on Bush, Rumsfeld and Cheney (and his 2% rule for risk of terrorist attack) who torched off two decades of military action and nation building in Afghanistan and Iraq and the resulting loss of life to our solders and innocent civilians along with the squander of our national treasure.
I have difficulty pulling all the aspects of this mess together. But let me enumerate what I'm seeing/hearing/understanding at this point:
1. I agree with many that we never should have been there as a large force in the first place.
2. That said, there clearly was mission creep.
3. I don't know that the Afghans were unwilling; were they sold out by the Americans who negotiated with the Taliban but not the Afghan government?
4. A country that repeatedly has been invaded and occupied - starting with Alexander the Great, up through modern times, with the British and the then-Soviet Union during the Cold War and then being used as a pawn by the US to fight the Soviets (remember, we armed and trained the Mujahadeen...) and then we just DROPPED them instead of educating the young fighters and their kids and siblings until we waltzed back in because the Taliban were harboring Al Queda and Bin Laden - How did these people who haven't been able to direct their own destiny without an invasion force being there ever have a chance? Maybe I'm being too lenient, but I can't see that these people would have been prepared to stand up, even if their training - which was based on US military protocols of technology instead of the guerrilla ground strategies that are required for that environment to take on the Taliban - had been provided.
5. We have seen scenes like this repeatedly in US history (despite nuance-like differences): Saigon, the Kurds, now Kabul. Maybe the US is being revealed to the world for who and what we are?
6. Which administration are we to blame for this? The Bush administration started the invasion, the Obama administration ramped up our presence there, the Trump administration set a deadline for withdrawal after negotiating ONLY with the Taliban, The Biden administration - with a delay - lived up to the agreement of the withdrawal negotiated by the previous administration - showing that the US lives up to its commitments.
7. Do I agree with the move to leave Kabul? I don't know. So many have spoken about the "forever war." But we still have troops in Korea after the Korean Conflict (1950s) and we still have troops in Europe, since World War II. So "forever war"? I don't know. That said, the decision was made; I don't argue with the "what" of the decision. I hate to see that it was executed so poorly. The sheer numbers of people seeking to escape - mostly middle and upper class people (the poor probably see choice as not possible) - show these last 20 years have meant something to the population. We need to be responsible and get them to safety.
8. How long will the American public remember this and factor it in their consciousness and decision making? I doubt much beyond the arrival of the next crisis.
Biden had to choose from a short list of bad options. We live in s selfish world.
Biden owns the botched exit strategy. Full stop. However, there are many fathers for the Afghan security force’s surrender to the Taliban without a fight; these include the Obama, Bush and Trump administrations who collectively spent $1 Trillion to train, equip and support these same Afghan forces who quit before the fighting ever started. The Trump administration’s unilateral negotiations with the Taliban (no Afghan government participation), together with the release of Taliban prisoners, and establishing a May 2021 deadline for the exit of U.S. forces was a serious blunder. Biden reversed many of Trump’s policies and likely now wishes he had done so on Afghanistan!
There would never have been a good time to withdraw. I see it as Biden taking one for the team. It was always going to be controversial and probably messy. I agree that we should have been better prepared to get out of there, but I suspect more light will be shed on circumstances within the next few weeks.
I’m not qualified to comment on a war that’s been going on for hundreds of years. Biden did the right thing for the US and now there’s hell to pay for the civilians. We can’t control the taliban in Afghanistan..perhaps we should control the American taliban before it’s too late